Great post. Or rather, great ripostes! Coming from the other Virginia there wasn't the same lost cause vibe. Sure, there were people sympathetic to both sides of the late unpleasantness (or great Northern invasion or some such). And I'm pretty sure I had ancestors on both sides; one of whom had the good sense to be captured by Federals early in the war. But I think the birth of the state coinciding with emancipation made it in some ways a more Northern state. And of course, as a mountainous border state many of the folks just wanted to be left alone. Also tough terrain for large troop movements... I do recall that I favored my toy soldiers in blue over those in grey.
The emergence of your state is a fascinating bit of American law. If I remember correctly, VA and WV were locked in legal disputes over pre-war debts until the 1910s or 1920s.
The John Coltrane piece is marvelous. It comes from the same concert (I think) in which Wynton Marsalis and his quintet played with Mark O'Connor, the superb fiddler. Now Mr, Coltrane -- I really have to find the concert DVD.
Bob -- there's a lot to unpack in that fantastic post, but I'll limit myself to a few thoughts on the Civil War and Rocky Mount stories (great anecdotes, both--thanks for sharing them).
On the Civil War: I moved from my native Texas to the bustling metropolis of Roanoke, Virginia as a high school freshman in 1985, which meant I got my full year of mandatory Texas History as a 7th grader and a year of 8th grade U.S. History in Texas, followed by a year of "Virginia and U.S. History" in 11th grade. It was very interesting to hear the different spins teachers in different former Confederate states put on the Civil War. In Texas, I mostly remember being taught that the state ALMOST didn't join the Confederacy (a great story that is, unfortunately, completely untrue, no matter how much my teachers wished it wasn't); moreover, I recall teachers conveying a sense of deep embarrassment about Texas's side in the war. One teacher focused primarily on Sam Houston's refusal to pledge allegiance to the Confederacy and his resulting resignation as Texas Governor. There might have been a little about states rights here and there. But all in all, there was very little of the Lost Cause mythology in the curriculum as I recall it, and a lot more "of course it was about slavery."
In Virginia, things were a little different, though I suspect Roanoke was a little less Lost-Cause-focused than Richmond would have been. My teacher was in her final pre-retirement year when I took Virginia and U.S. History, which probably would have put her birth year around 1923. I'd never really thought about the fact that there were still octogenarian Civil War veterans knocking around (and plenty of slightly younger people with real memories of the war years) when she was a child. We did hear a lot about states rights from her, and we also got the occasional "the Civil War wasn't about slavery." Except we didn't. Because she really did tend to call it "The Great Unpleasantness" or something similar.
On Franklin County: I spent a lot of time there in high school, both as a track and soccer athlete and, more interestingly, as a soccer referee. In the late 1980s, soccer was just coming to Rocky Mount, and the best way for me to make around $100 in a day -- no small sum then -- was to take a reffing assignment in the Franklin County rec league on fall Saturdays. I have no idea whether there was any surreptitious moonshine consumption going on (though I have sampled some of Franklin County's best myself over the years), but we did five games in a day, and were specifically instructed to make it more about teaching the game than calling the game. My main memory of those experiences was that neither the parents nor the kids were anywhere near as backward as those of us living 20 miles north in oh-so-sophisticated Roanoke wanted to believe.
Also, the fastest I've ever driven was on Route 220 between Roanoke and Rocky Mount. Franklin County's moonshining history unsurprisingly blessed it with a number of top-notch engine shops. One day, shortly after getting my driver's license, I offered to help a friend by driving his 1970 Mustang with a 351 Cleveland back to Roanoke after a full engine rebuild. Having done almost all of my driving to date in a 64-horsepower 1983 Renault Alliance, I had no frame of reference for what that Mustang could do, or how fast it could go without feeling like it was going fast. At one point I looked down at the speedometer and saw I was somewhere over 110 mph. I slowed down after that. . .
Interesting account. And, of course, LBJ was really counted as the first post-Civil War Southern president because, well, Texas. And why our history classes, with all their Virginia pride, didn't give much space to Sam Houston. (They gave ZERO attention to Winfield Scott, who was from just outside my hometown and was the most important general between the Revolution and the Civil War and came relatively close to being president.) You might enjoy my earlier piece, "Virginia’s 12½ Presidents" (https://graboyes.substack.com/p/virginias-12-presidents).
Great Roanoke-to-Rocky Mount stories. 220 was the rode I took down for my interview
Certainly in spirit—and in the worst possible ways. But he was governor of New Jersey and president of Princeton before that. So his Southern pedigree was a bit compromised.
Yes, a wonderful post. I wonder if anyone warned you that a fully rebuilt engine should be babied for X number of miles. That at least would have been the scriptural teaching back then. Sounds like a fantastic drive. I worked at the Salem Va near Roanoke a number of years ago. My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the area. Toured most of the Civil War battlefields of Virginia. I had read Bruce Catton’s Civil War trilogy and other books, and he really made the battles come to life. There’s not much to see now near Cedar Creek, but Catton’s thrilling description of Sheridan’s return from Winchester to retake the field and win the day remains fondly in my memory.
True. Can't believe I did not feel outraged at the guy on the sitar playing Coltrane. The question is, does cultural appropriation go both ways? I know my Brazilian relatives love all things American: rock and roll, Levi's jeans, and especially any T-shirts with American themed logos. Universities are very popular. I guess I shouldn't be seen wearing my #10 (for Pele) Brazilian National Team shirt.........sigh.
It really is. And to get there, I had to drive south from Roanoke ... and it was early Spring, with the trees a brilliant green from the new leaves and buds.
Serving in the Sixth Fleet aboard the flagship USS Little Rock (CLG-4) and operating with one of the two carrier task forces deployed to the Med back then (1968-70). The TF commander, an admiral, was personally directing formation changes, course changes, in rapid succession – working the Task Force – at night. Picture half a dozen destroyers, the cruiser, and the aircraft carrier hurtling through the night, changing positions, speeding up, slowing down, rushing to take a new station. New course, now location in the formation and avoid all the other ships also changing positions and courses, all at the same times, and then in short order being ordered into a new formation and doing it all again... and again... and again. It was a hectic few hours.
On every bridge there was a bridge team with an Officer of the Deck (OD) and Junior Officer of the Deck (JOOD) plotting the changes, giving orders, piloting the ship amidst the greater confusion – and constantly having to change, to adapt to changes, to keep up with the ordered maneuvers and execute them on time and correctly... and suddenly having it all change yet again. Also on every bridge was a line of sight radio system called TBS (Talk Between Ships) that was the communications net all of this was being done. Of course the only one talking on TBS was the admiral, everybody else was listening and acknowledging when he ordered “Execute”. The TBS had a transmit button but using it required one hand better employed working your maneuvering board and bridge gear necessary to running the ship, so the common practice was to tape the transmit button down so you could clamp the handset between your shoulder and ears, you could listen, speak, and keep both hands free.
Obviously, somewhere in the formation was a harried OD or JOOD working his maneuvering board, trying to keep up with the rapid fire formation, course and speed changes with the TBS phone stuck to his ear and the transmit button taped down and maybe getting behind the curve. Anyway, there was a pause in the admiral’s traffic, and you could hear muttered over the air “Jesus Christ I am all f****d up...”
Silence ensued... then the admiral immediately ordered, “The sender of that last transmission WILL identify himself!” No response, and the admiral repeated it... “The sender of the last transmission WILL identify himself!” and again a third time.
Then, in response, and whispered so as not to be overheard on his bridge: “I may be f****d up, but I’m not THAT f****d up...”
It might have been Halley’s Comet, with its “less-than-stellar” manifestation last time, that spurred a friend of mine to suggest that those of us who managed to see it should thereafter claim that the tail was spectacular and had “every color of the rainbow”, to see if that had caught on twenty years later.
It struck me as a worthwhile experiment in social engineering, but unfortunately the *idea* was too amusing a story, and so that’s the story I tell instead.
Thanks, and glad SOMEONE got to see Halley's. :) I have seen better ones since, like Hale-Bopp--which was stunning. And the object of peculiar and deadly cult fervor.
I agree with Mary B. A great Sunday morning after a long run post. I am not usually a fan of the type of jazz typified by Coltrane and others of his genre, but I loved the video and both watched and listened in admiration at the musicianship and pleasure at the blending of two distinct cultures to produce something that transcended both. Thanks. Rick
Great post. Or rather, great ripostes! Coming from the other Virginia there wasn't the same lost cause vibe. Sure, there were people sympathetic to both sides of the late unpleasantness (or great Northern invasion or some such). And I'm pretty sure I had ancestors on both sides; one of whom had the good sense to be captured by Federals early in the war. But I think the birth of the state coinciding with emancipation made it in some ways a more Northern state. And of course, as a mountainous border state many of the folks just wanted to be left alone. Also tough terrain for large troop movements... I do recall that I favored my toy soldiers in blue over those in grey.
The emergence of your state is a fascinating bit of American law. If I remember correctly, VA and WV were locked in legal disputes over pre-war debts until the 1910s or 1920s.
The John Coltrane piece is marvelous. It comes from the same concert (I think) in which Wynton Marsalis and his quintet played with Mark O'Connor, the superb fiddler. Now Mr, Coltrane -- I really have to find the concert DVD.
I'll look for those performances, too. Thanks.
Bob -- there's a lot to unpack in that fantastic post, but I'll limit myself to a few thoughts on the Civil War and Rocky Mount stories (great anecdotes, both--thanks for sharing them).
On the Civil War: I moved from my native Texas to the bustling metropolis of Roanoke, Virginia as a high school freshman in 1985, which meant I got my full year of mandatory Texas History as a 7th grader and a year of 8th grade U.S. History in Texas, followed by a year of "Virginia and U.S. History" in 11th grade. It was very interesting to hear the different spins teachers in different former Confederate states put on the Civil War. In Texas, I mostly remember being taught that the state ALMOST didn't join the Confederacy (a great story that is, unfortunately, completely untrue, no matter how much my teachers wished it wasn't); moreover, I recall teachers conveying a sense of deep embarrassment about Texas's side in the war. One teacher focused primarily on Sam Houston's refusal to pledge allegiance to the Confederacy and his resulting resignation as Texas Governor. There might have been a little about states rights here and there. But all in all, there was very little of the Lost Cause mythology in the curriculum as I recall it, and a lot more "of course it was about slavery."
In Virginia, things were a little different, though I suspect Roanoke was a little less Lost-Cause-focused than Richmond would have been. My teacher was in her final pre-retirement year when I took Virginia and U.S. History, which probably would have put her birth year around 1923. I'd never really thought about the fact that there were still octogenarian Civil War veterans knocking around (and plenty of slightly younger people with real memories of the war years) when she was a child. We did hear a lot about states rights from her, and we also got the occasional "the Civil War wasn't about slavery." Except we didn't. Because she really did tend to call it "The Great Unpleasantness" or something similar.
On Franklin County: I spent a lot of time there in high school, both as a track and soccer athlete and, more interestingly, as a soccer referee. In the late 1980s, soccer was just coming to Rocky Mount, and the best way for me to make around $100 in a day -- no small sum then -- was to take a reffing assignment in the Franklin County rec league on fall Saturdays. I have no idea whether there was any surreptitious moonshine consumption going on (though I have sampled some of Franklin County's best myself over the years), but we did five games in a day, and were specifically instructed to make it more about teaching the game than calling the game. My main memory of those experiences was that neither the parents nor the kids were anywhere near as backward as those of us living 20 miles north in oh-so-sophisticated Roanoke wanted to believe.
Also, the fastest I've ever driven was on Route 220 between Roanoke and Rocky Mount. Franklin County's moonshining history unsurprisingly blessed it with a number of top-notch engine shops. One day, shortly after getting my driver's license, I offered to help a friend by driving his 1970 Mustang with a 351 Cleveland back to Roanoke after a full engine rebuild. Having done almost all of my driving to date in a 64-horsepower 1983 Renault Alliance, I had no frame of reference for what that Mustang could do, or how fast it could go without feeling like it was going fast. At one point I looked down at the speedometer and saw I was somewhere over 110 mph. I slowed down after that. . .
Thanks for an interesting trip down memory lane.
P
Interesting account. And, of course, LBJ was really counted as the first post-Civil War Southern president because, well, Texas. And why our history classes, with all their Virginia pride, didn't give much space to Sam Houston. (They gave ZERO attention to Winfield Scott, who was from just outside my hometown and was the most important general between the Revolution and the Civil War and came relatively close to being president.) You might enjoy my earlier piece, "Virginia’s 12½ Presidents" (https://graboyes.substack.com/p/virginias-12-presidents).
Great Roanoke-to-Rocky Mount stories. 220 was the rode I took down for my interview
I would have said that Woodrow Wilson was the first post-Civil War Southern president.
Certainly in spirit—and in the worst possible ways. But he was governor of New Jersey and president of Princeton before that. So his Southern pedigree was a bit compromised.
The 12 1/2 Presidents post is great too!
Wonderful post. Thank you.
Yes, a wonderful post. I wonder if anyone warned you that a fully rebuilt engine should be babied for X number of miles. That at least would have been the scriptural teaching back then. Sounds like a fantastic drive. I worked at the Salem Va near Roanoke a number of years ago. My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the area. Toured most of the Civil War battlefields of Virginia. I had read Bruce Catton’s Civil War trilogy and other books, and he really made the battles come to life. There’s not much to see now near Cedar Creek, but Catton’s thrilling description of Sheridan’s return from Winchester to retake the field and win the day remains fondly in my memory.
Wonderful stories to tell! Thank you for a great post for Sunday!
And thank you! Glad you enjoyed them.
Ah, ha ha ha ha ha!
:)
Thanks for a great read. Out of the mouths of babes…
True. Can't believe I did not feel outraged at the guy on the sitar playing Coltrane. The question is, does cultural appropriation go both ways? I know my Brazilian relatives love all things American: rock and roll, Levi's jeans, and especially any T-shirts with American themed logos. Universities are very popular. I guess I shouldn't be seen wearing my #10 (for Pele) Brazilian National Team shirt.........sigh.
We recently spent a lovely week in Rocky Mount, VA seeing the local area. It's no wonder you were interested in that job. It's a beautiful place.
It really is. And to get there, I had to drive south from Roanoke ... and it was early Spring, with the trees a brilliant green from the new leaves and buds.
Serving in the Sixth Fleet aboard the flagship USS Little Rock (CLG-4) and operating with one of the two carrier task forces deployed to the Med back then (1968-70). The TF commander, an admiral, was personally directing formation changes, course changes, in rapid succession – working the Task Force – at night. Picture half a dozen destroyers, the cruiser, and the aircraft carrier hurtling through the night, changing positions, speeding up, slowing down, rushing to take a new station. New course, now location in the formation and avoid all the other ships also changing positions and courses, all at the same times, and then in short order being ordered into a new formation and doing it all again... and again... and again. It was a hectic few hours.
On every bridge there was a bridge team with an Officer of the Deck (OD) and Junior Officer of the Deck (JOOD) plotting the changes, giving orders, piloting the ship amidst the greater confusion – and constantly having to change, to adapt to changes, to keep up with the ordered maneuvers and execute them on time and correctly... and suddenly having it all change yet again. Also on every bridge was a line of sight radio system called TBS (Talk Between Ships) that was the communications net all of this was being done. Of course the only one talking on TBS was the admiral, everybody else was listening and acknowledging when he ordered “Execute”. The TBS had a transmit button but using it required one hand better employed working your maneuvering board and bridge gear necessary to running the ship, so the common practice was to tape the transmit button down so you could clamp the handset between your shoulder and ears, you could listen, speak, and keep both hands free.
Obviously, somewhere in the formation was a harried OD or JOOD working his maneuvering board, trying to keep up with the rapid fire formation, course and speed changes with the TBS phone stuck to his ear and the transmit button taped down and maybe getting behind the curve. Anyway, there was a pause in the admiral’s traffic, and you could hear muttered over the air “Jesus Christ I am all f****d up...”
Silence ensued... then the admiral immediately ordered, “The sender of that last transmission WILL identify himself!” No response, and the admiral repeated it... “The sender of the last transmission WILL identify himself!” and again a third time.
Then, in response, and whispered so as not to be overheard on his bridge: “I may be f****d up, but I’m not THAT f****d up...”
I support this anecdote
Fantastic story. :)
Great stories and love the music! I did get to see Halley's in '86, not all that easy to see. Must be just around or just past aphelion now.
It might have been Halley’s Comet, with its “less-than-stellar” manifestation last time, that spurred a friend of mine to suggest that those of us who managed to see it should thereafter claim that the tail was spectacular and had “every color of the rainbow”, to see if that had caught on twenty years later.
It struck me as a worthwhile experiment in social engineering, but unfortunately the *idea* was too amusing a story, and so that’s the story I tell instead.
I like that. Long-term disinformation. :)
Thanks, and glad SOMEONE got to see Halley's. :) I have seen better ones since, like Hale-Bopp--which was stunning. And the object of peculiar and deadly cult fervor.
I agree with Mary B. A great Sunday morning after a long run post. I am not usually a fan of the type of jazz typified by Coltrane and others of his genre, but I loved the video and both watched and listened in admiration at the musicianship and pleasure at the blending of two distinct cultures to produce something that transcended both. Thanks. Rick
If nothing else, you gotta love the cultural appropriation qualities of that video. :)
A lovely Sunday-morning-drinking coffee-listening-to-the-birds read.
As intended!
Thank you!!