After reading this, I'm left wondering why there is no Nobel Prize for music. I guess Alfred didn't care for it much, but think of the possible winners -- Mahler, Gershwin, Copeland, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, maybe even Bernstein (at the risk of stepping on a sore toe of Mr. A), and a whole host of non-Western composers of whom I confess being ignorant. He could have just combined Physics and Chemistry the way he did Physiology and Medicine, and Music could have a medal all its own -- with or without lyrics.
Interesting conjecture. Yes, it would have been a great idea. Never thought of it. And, to my knowledge, there is really no equivalent. The Library of Congress created the Gershwin Prize to honor popular song. The first few were splendid choices, but since then, it has gone in some odd directions.
The creators of (in this case literally) world-shaking inventions, trying to atone for their imaginary crimes by endowing cultural institutions, are entitled to a certain amount of favoritism in the distribution of their own money.
Ah, the great Elmer. My head contains dozens of earworms that I find myself humming frequently. "The Minstrel Boy" (theme to "The Man Who Would Be King") has been the most incessant since I first saw the film. But the theme from "The Magnificent Seven" is a close contender. I always found it to be a breathtaking work. Of course, I first became aware of it through Marlboro commercials, but the full piece is ... well ... magnificent.
Simon & Garfunkel’s Bookends was only eight lines and just a short minute or so of music, but listening to it moves me as much as literature and poetry I am supposed to admire. I cannot speak to which or what awards should be or not - we give far too many to people who do little, and not nearly enough to people who quietly do so much.
Of course haiku is poetry. I was merely engaging in self-referential humor--the answer as haiku, with a noncommittal answer.
To my ears, haiku sounds more beautiful in Japanese than in English. Perhaps that's because, as with Brodsky's poems, I'm only listening to the nearly musical sounds, uninterrupted by comprehension of the words. The English attempts at haiku that I've seen have come off as stiff. But, no telling how I would view Japanese haiku if I spoke Japanese.
First, in the particular quotation the antecedent of “the songwriter” was Bob Dylan, not the songwriter as a Platonic form.
I readily grant that *categorically* song lyric is poetry and poetry is literature, therefore in principle eligible for literary prizes.
I admit being astonished that the first such award is for the highest literary prize. What are the odds?
But most song lyric is mere doggerel. The symbolism is sometimes striking, as might also be a clever turn of phrase, but seldom extended or thematic. The tricks of sound seldom sum to the sense. The sense is often banal and often pretentious into the bargain. Etc.
To my taste, perhaps not the worst in these respects, but plenty bad enough is Bob Dylan. Notwithstanding that negative criticism is allegedly fun to write and to read, I shall not here support my conclusory negative judgement with examples or arguments. If not res ipsa loquitur then by no means let my words disparage an artist you esteem.
All fair comments. Thanks for these -- and for inspiring a piece I really enjoyed writing. If nothing else, the parallels between Brodsky's poem and Jobim's song will occupy my thoughts for a while. As for sound and words, here's a little story from historian John Steele Gordon, writing about his uncle, Oscar Hammerstein II:
There’s a family story about his game-playing. I can’t vouch for its authenticity, but it rings true. He was playing a very informal game of bridge with two of his collaborators, the composers Jerome Kern and Sigmund Romberg, and someone else one afternoon. During one hand, Oscar was dummy and he got up to look into the other hands. He saw immediately that the only way his partner, Romberg, would be able to make the hand was if he knew that Kern held a singleton spade. He began to whistle the song "One Alone," from the Romberg/Hammerstein 1920s hit The Desert Song. Romberg paid no attention and went down. ... "Goddamn it!" Oscar said. "Didn’t you hear me whistling ‘One Alone’?" ... “I recognized the music,” Romberg deadpanned, “but who remembers the words?” https://www.commentary.org/articles/john-steele-gordon/my-uncle-oscar-hammerstein/
On the other hand, there's this story about Hammerstein's wife:
During an extravagant New York gala Dorothy overheard a man effusively praising the song 'Ol’ Man River'. The man’s remarks concluded with acclaim for the genius of Jerome Kern. Dorothy stepped forward and responded energetically: "Jerome Kern wrote ‘dum, dum, dum-dum’. My husband wrote “Ol’ Man River”. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/09/14/lyricist/
A QUERY FROM MY WIFE/ My defense of Dylan's Nobel rested on several points. (1) Songwriting is a genre that deserved recognition as high literature; (2) I would have greatly preferred that such an award go to Tom Jobim but, alas, he had been dead for 22 years when the Swedish Academy decided that songwriting was a worthy addition to their menu of genres; and (3) Given those facts, I thought that no songwriter ALIVE IN 2016 was a better exemplar than Dylan (with the possible exception of Leonard Cohen). You state above that, "I readily grant that *categorically* song lyric is poetry and poetry is literature, therefore in principle eligible for literary prizes." You also stated your admiration for both Bernsteins on the melody side. All this said, my wife asked whether you can name any songwriters/lyricists from the past whom you would deem to be Nobel-worthy (assuming that no ban existed on posthumous awards). I'll add that I'm especially interested in 20th/21st century songwriter/lyricists.
David. Also Solomon, which would make them, other than the Braggs, the only father and son Nobel Laureates. But of course they died long before the 20th Century.
:) Wondering whether some Tipper Gore predecessor would have demanded that the music industry slap a parental warning label on Song of Songs/Song of Solomon.
Is that what Mrs. Gore did? My impression was that she went before Congress—the Biblical equivalent would have been the Davidic dynasty, presenting an interesting conflict of interest—to lobby for a requirement that publishers of “records marketed to children” have labels (placed there by the publishers) for parents. The Biblical equivalents of publishers, marketing, marketing to children, and labels for parents are not, to say no more, obvious.
Wonderful post! My wife and I have had many debates about the lyrics of Jim Morrison. I maintain they are exquisite poetry, she that they are sophomoric and would not be remembered except for the Doors songs. Morrison, of course, wrote isolated poetry (https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/best-jim-morrison-poetry) and for me his best lyrics are equal to Dylan's (Bob or Thomas).
"What have they done with the earth? / What have they done with our fair sister? / Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her / Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn / Tied her with fences and dragged her down / We want the world and we want it now”.
Great post! I’m in the “lyrics as poetry” camp. “Battle Hymn of the Republic” never fails to move me. Twenty-two year old Paul Simon’s “Sound of Silence” lyrics still astound me.
Thanks! I’ve heard that before. Seems to be some guy who just made up his own melody to go with the words. I don’t think Dylan ever wrote down the music, if there ever was any.
https://bob-dylan.org.uk/archives/14206 Suggests that it was originally set to the tune of a Pete Seeger song, which seems entirely possible given Dylan’s penchant for repurposing other people’s songs.
That's great! I never saw that page. I mentioned "Listen, Robert Moses" in this article:https://graboyes.substack.com/p/soho-45. In it, I said that Dylan played a "peripheral role" in saving SoHo from demolition. The fact that it was saved enabled one Alanna Siegfried to write a book, "SoHo" a little over a decade later. The fact that I read her book may have prompted her to date me. And, 44 years later, we're quite pleased by the whole sequence of events. :).
In support of your "fine poetry" argument, I will relay a short story of my misspent youth:
In 1976 I was taking senior English in high school. My teacher chose to disparage rock music and musicians during class time. I verbally challenged her assertion that there was "nothing of value" to "that music". I was informed that I should keep my comments to myself.
The following week, we were given an assignment to turn in a short poem, with the best examples (as perceived by her) to be read aloud during class. I turned in the following:
--------------------------------
Know that your place in life
Is where you want to be
Don’t let them tell you that
You owe it all to me
Keep on looking forward
No use in looking round
Carry your head above the crowd
And they won’t bring you down
------------------------------------
She chose to read this aloud, and was surprised when many in the class began giggling during the recital. Of course, she didn't recognize that these were the lyrics to "Fly By Night" by the hard rock band Rush, very popular at the moment. Point made, but at a cost.
Epilogue: The Vice Principal chose to merely reprimand me for plagiarism rather than suspend me for insubordination in class. (I think he was a closet Rush music fan).
Yes. All hail to Bob Dylan. His lyrics are great, even when they leave me scratching my head. An experience akin to reading Pound’s Cantos, and who would deny Pound a spot in the canon? But remember that Dylan rejected literary honors for himself. He told us that William Robinson was “the only living American poet.” To save you the trip to Wikipedia, remember that Robinson’s nickname was ‘Smokey.’ Time to dust off those old LPs.
Well, he took his Nobel. Just didn't show up for the ceremony. :) I didn't know of his special esteem for Robinson. The Beatles certainly shared his feelings--notably with "This Boy."
After reading this, I'm left wondering why there is no Nobel Prize for music. I guess Alfred didn't care for it much, but think of the possible winners -- Mahler, Gershwin, Copeland, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, maybe even Bernstein (at the risk of stepping on a sore toe of Mr. A), and a whole host of non-Western composers of whom I confess being ignorant. He could have just combined Physics and Chemistry the way he did Physiology and Medicine, and Music could have a medal all its own -- with or without lyrics.
Interesting conjecture. Yes, it would have been a great idea. Never thought of it. And, to my knowledge, there is really no equivalent. The Library of Congress created the Gershwin Prize to honor popular song. The first few were splendid choices, but since then, it has gone in some odd directions.
The creators of (in this case literally) world-shaking inventions, trying to atone for their imaginary crimes by endowing cultural institutions, are entitled to a certain amount of favoritism in the distribution of their own money.
They would agree.
They would be right.
Mr. A could suffer a music prize for Bernstein—not only Leonard, but even Elmer. Mr. A is not so inelastic as you might imagine.
Ah, the great Elmer. My head contains dozens of earworms that I find myself humming frequently. "The Minstrel Boy" (theme to "The Man Who Would Be King") has been the most incessant since I first saw the film. But the theme from "The Magnificent Seven" is a close contender. I always found it to be a breathtaking work. Of course, I first became aware of it through Marlboro commercials, but the full piece is ... well ... magnificent.
Just so.
Simon & Garfunkel’s Bookends was only eight lines and just a short minute or so of music, but listening to it moves me as much as literature and poetry I am supposed to admire. I cannot speak to which or what awards should be or not - we give far too many to people who do little, and not nearly enough to people who quietly do so much.
Is haiku poetry?
You ques-tion hai-ku
Whe-ther it is po-e-try
No an-swer is heard.
Well played!
Of course an answer is heard.
Of course haiku is poetry.
Welcome to the West.
Of course haiku is poetry. I was merely engaging in self-referential humor--the answer as haiku, with a noncommittal answer.
To my ears, haiku sounds more beautiful in Japanese than in English. Perhaps that's because, as with Brodsky's poems, I'm only listening to the nearly musical sounds, uninterrupted by comprehension of the words. The English attempts at haiku that I've seen have come off as stiff. But, no telling how I would view Japanese haiku if I spoke Japanese.
I got it. I nearly answered in limerick, or clerihew, or some similar form—but decided that wouldn’t fit my online persona. :)
You didn't get the joke.
Possible. Was it deeper or cleverer than posting in rough-and-ready haiku about haiku?
I've heard it countless times. I'll have to re-listen with your words in mind.
First, in the particular quotation the antecedent of “the songwriter” was Bob Dylan, not the songwriter as a Platonic form.
I readily grant that *categorically* song lyric is poetry and poetry is literature, therefore in principle eligible for literary prizes.
I admit being astonished that the first such award is for the highest literary prize. What are the odds?
But most song lyric is mere doggerel. The symbolism is sometimes striking, as might also be a clever turn of phrase, but seldom extended or thematic. The tricks of sound seldom sum to the sense. The sense is often banal and often pretentious into the bargain. Etc.
To my taste, perhaps not the worst in these respects, but plenty bad enough is Bob Dylan. Notwithstanding that negative criticism is allegedly fun to write and to read, I shall not here support my conclusory negative judgement with examples or arguments. If not res ipsa loquitur then by no means let my words disparage an artist you esteem.
All fair comments. Thanks for these -- and for inspiring a piece I really enjoyed writing. If nothing else, the parallels between Brodsky's poem and Jobim's song will occupy my thoughts for a while. As for sound and words, here's a little story from historian John Steele Gordon, writing about his uncle, Oscar Hammerstein II:
There’s a family story about his game-playing. I can’t vouch for its authenticity, but it rings true. He was playing a very informal game of bridge with two of his collaborators, the composers Jerome Kern and Sigmund Romberg, and someone else one afternoon. During one hand, Oscar was dummy and he got up to look into the other hands. He saw immediately that the only way his partner, Romberg, would be able to make the hand was if he knew that Kern held a singleton spade. He began to whistle the song "One Alone," from the Romberg/Hammerstein 1920s hit The Desert Song. Romberg paid no attention and went down. ... "Goddamn it!" Oscar said. "Didn’t you hear me whistling ‘One Alone’?" ... “I recognized the music,” Romberg deadpanned, “but who remembers the words?” https://www.commentary.org/articles/john-steele-gordon/my-uncle-oscar-hammerstein/
On the other hand, there's this story about Hammerstein's wife:
During an extravagant New York gala Dorothy overheard a man effusively praising the song 'Ol’ Man River'. The man’s remarks concluded with acclaim for the genius of Jerome Kern. Dorothy stepped forward and responded energetically: "Jerome Kern wrote ‘dum, dum, dum-dum’. My husband wrote “Ol’ Man River”. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/09/14/lyricist/
A QUERY FROM MY WIFE/ My defense of Dylan's Nobel rested on several points. (1) Songwriting is a genre that deserved recognition as high literature; (2) I would have greatly preferred that such an award go to Tom Jobim but, alas, he had been dead for 22 years when the Swedish Academy decided that songwriting was a worthy addition to their menu of genres; and (3) Given those facts, I thought that no songwriter ALIVE IN 2016 was a better exemplar than Dylan (with the possible exception of Leonard Cohen). You state above that, "I readily grant that *categorically* song lyric is poetry and poetry is literature, therefore in principle eligible for literary prizes." You also stated your admiration for both Bernsteins on the melody side. All this said, my wife asked whether you can name any songwriters/lyricists from the past whom you would deem to be Nobel-worthy (assuming that no ban existed on posthumous awards). I'll add that I'm especially interested in 20th/21st century songwriter/lyricists.
David. Also Solomon, which would make them, other than the Braggs, the only father and son Nobel Laureates. But of course they died long before the 20th Century.
:) Wondering whether some Tipper Gore predecessor would have demanded that the music industry slap a parental warning label on Song of Songs/Song of Solomon.
Is that what Mrs. Gore did? My impression was that she went before Congress—the Biblical equivalent would have been the Davidic dynasty, presenting an interesting conflict of interest—to lobby for a requirement that publishers of “records marketed to children” have labels (placed there by the publishers) for parents. The Biblical equivalents of publishers, marketing, marketing to children, and labels for parents are not, to say no more, obvious.
That was kind of the point of the quip. :)
:)
Wonderful post! My wife and I have had many debates about the lyrics of Jim Morrison. I maintain they are exquisite poetry, she that they are sophomoric and would not be remembered except for the Doors songs. Morrison, of course, wrote isolated poetry (https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/best-jim-morrison-poetry) and for me his best lyrics are equal to Dylan's (Bob or Thomas).
"What have they done with the earth? / What have they done with our fair sister? / Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her / Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn / Tied her with fences and dragged her down / We want the world and we want it now”.
You and your wife are both right—you in that his best lyrics are equal to Dylan’s; she in that they are sophomoric and forgettable.
Happy Valentine’s Day to you both.
:)
Good memories!
Great post! I’m in the “lyrics as poetry” camp. “Battle Hymn of the Republic” never fails to move me. Twenty-two year old Paul Simon’s “Sound of Silence” lyrics still astound me.
A favorite of mine is Tom Russel’s “Guadalupe,” which should fit in well with the “growling singers” genre. https://youtu.be/YijteZZlCgI?si=ROa6nvNam-uvTqpO
Nice cut that I didn't know! Thanks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9c09rIEk0jI for the Robert Moses song.
Thanks! I’ve heard that before. Seems to be some guy who just made up his own melody to go with the words. I don’t think Dylan ever wrote down the music, if there ever was any.
https://bob-dylan.org.uk/archives/14206 Suggests that it was originally set to the tune of a Pete Seeger song, which seems entirely possible given Dylan’s penchant for repurposing other people’s songs.
That's great! I never saw that page. I mentioned "Listen, Robert Moses" in this article:https://graboyes.substack.com/p/soho-45. In it, I said that Dylan played a "peripheral role" in saving SoHo from demolition. The fact that it was saved enabled one Alanna Siegfried to write a book, "SoHo" a little over a decade later. The fact that I read her book may have prompted her to date me. And, 44 years later, we're quite pleased by the whole sequence of events. :).
Bob Dylan deserves a Nobel Prize for the song, "With God on Our Side," even if he wrote nothing else.
So much better when the singer is Joan Baez,, however.
That's quite a choice, John! An interesting one.
In support of your "fine poetry" argument, I will relay a short story of my misspent youth:
In 1976 I was taking senior English in high school. My teacher chose to disparage rock music and musicians during class time. I verbally challenged her assertion that there was "nothing of value" to "that music". I was informed that I should keep my comments to myself.
The following week, we were given an assignment to turn in a short poem, with the best examples (as perceived by her) to be read aloud during class. I turned in the following:
--------------------------------
Know that your place in life
Is where you want to be
Don’t let them tell you that
You owe it all to me
Keep on looking forward
No use in looking round
Carry your head above the crowd
And they won’t bring you down
------------------------------------
She chose to read this aloud, and was surprised when many in the class began giggling during the recital. Of course, she didn't recognize that these were the lyrics to "Fly By Night" by the hard rock band Rush, very popular at the moment. Point made, but at a cost.
Epilogue: The Vice Principal chose to merely reprimand me for plagiarism rather than suspend me for insubordination in class. (I think he was a closet Rush music fan).
You were a brave soul! And, it seems, a lucky one.
🙂👍
Now do the music to which poetic or vapid lyrics are put
Yes. All hail to Bob Dylan. His lyrics are great, even when they leave me scratching my head. An experience akin to reading Pound’s Cantos, and who would deny Pound a spot in the canon? But remember that Dylan rejected literary honors for himself. He told us that William Robinson was “the only living American poet.” To save you the trip to Wikipedia, remember that Robinson’s nickname was ‘Smokey.’ Time to dust off those old LPs.
Well, he took his Nobel. Just didn't show up for the ceremony. :) I didn't know of his special esteem for Robinson. The Beatles certainly shared his feelings--notably with "This Boy."